Talk:Tim Burton

So... How do you guys want to tackle this? A rough plan ought to be good. I was thinking Introductory overview, followed by early life, then focusing on his career and future prospects. maybe a section devoted to style. This would be my appraoch from a wikipedia parody standpoint. Al expressed an interest in doing a non-parody piece this month, so I'm wondering what the rest of you were thinking in terms of that... --Sir Skinfan13 Talk {< CUN RotM FBotM VFH ΥΣΣ Maj. SK >} 22:26 EST 31 Mar, 2010

As a new member of USS, I have only this advice, make it subtle. If it can't be blatant, be subtle. Obviously, we'd have to parody Tim Burton's weirdness, and his fondness of Johnny Depp, but make it subtle! (i.e "Johnny Depp has starred in quite a few of his films, to the point that many detractors criticize Burton for being unable to cast anyone other than Depp for main roles. Burton replied to this critique by saying, "we've been good friends for quite a long time") M'su Carencro - Talk - Contributions - Blag 02:49, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe have Depp as the voice of the piece. My suggestin was to alternate monthly between an encyclopedic approach and a more free-flow approach. With Tim Burton it would be trippy, the man has extended the limits of moviemaking, hand in hand with Depp and Jim Carrey and others, and I think the page should be in that style. Maybe even in a form of a film, such as Johnny Depp starring in "Tim Burton's Citizen Kane" with Kane just tripping into strange areas of life and consciousness. I'll be on vacation from tomorrow until mid-week next week, so I may have to jump in on this one in progress, but I'd say trip 'er out until then. And Msu, welcome, and grab a hash pipe (you too Skin, which would end your career prettttttyyyyyy quickly I'd assume) from the frat's rec room when you approach the career of Mr. Timothy Burton, ah yes. Al 3:02 2 4 mmx

We could steal some material from the Wikipedia article. Not exactly a spork, though.—Sir ¬_¬ | Banter HOMOPHOBE!!! NOTM 03:06, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

Why isn't anyone editing!?--M'su Carencro - Talk - Contributions - Blag 22:36, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I've been mostly traveling today (and did a fair bit of drinking too). I'll be sure to work on this some tomorrow. -- Skinfan13 02:30 EST 3 April, 2010

I'm confused. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 12:43,4April,2010

My ideas/rant

Not that I'm interested in collaborating (cause I'm too cool), but perhaps the article should parody that he could be considered a really bad, small-minded director. He gets praised for his imaginative movies, but if you look at them, he hasn't really gone much further than what was already in his own head. Almost all of his films follow the same formula: the focus is on the special effects and the scenery, with little attention given to any realistic dialogue or plotting. He consistently includes Johnny Depp, Helena Bonham Carter (his wife, for convenience) Christopher Lee, and Alan Rickman in all his films. Danny Elfman has scored every single one of his films, except for Ed Wood when they had a falling out.

My biggest problem with Tim Burton is that he stubbornly insists on sticking Gothic Iconography in every single film he's made. And on top of that, he has barely any original ideas, with Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Batman, James and the Giant Peach, Mars Attacks, Planet of the Apes, Big Fish, Charlie and the Chocolate factory, Sweeney Todd, and Alice in Wonderland already being well-established franchises before he decided to remake, adapt them. And the only justification I can see he has for making them, is that he's going to put a "dark, gothic spin" on them, something which isn't highly original coming from him. In fact, I don't think this is my biggest problem with him after all.

My biggest problem would be that he has no respect for source material whatsoever. When making the Batman movies, he commented that he never really liked comic books because he couldn't tell how to read them, and only read one or two of the Batman comic books (He later had the gall to say that he would have made his Batmans the way they did the far superior modern ones, but Hollywood wouldn't let him because "When I did Batman twenty years ago, in 1988 or something, it was a different time in comic book movies. You couldn't go into that dark side of comics yet.").

Big Fish was "loosely adapted" from the original book, Ed Wood is supposedly rife with historical inaccuracies, James and the Giant Peach deviates slightly from the original (although it was a child's book, so there's a fair chance he was capable of reading it all the way through), Planet of the Apes was fucking stupid, and had nothing to do with the original novel or the first film.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was entirely different from the original film, although ironically closer to the novel (again, a Roald Dahl's child novel that Burton might have taken the effort to actually read it before adapting it into a major motion picture.) With Sweeney Todd, he and the other writer John Logan were said to have "reworked" the screenplay, "reducing" some "secondary elements". And finally, besides the characters, Alice in Wonderland had fuck-all to do with the original disney films or the novel.

In short, I hate Tim Burton with a fucking vengeance (although I still enjoy one or two of his films). Sorry if this all sounded like venting, but perhaps one of my fellow frat-bros will be able to take something funny away from the ranting, and include it with a bit more subtlety than I have in the article. Also, I like the Johnny Depp narration idea. Perhaps it could be a bit like that documentary he did on Hunter S. Thompson, and he could take us through Burton's life and works, interspersed with quotations from Burton about his filmmaking approach to the movie at hand. --Matfen 13:14, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Burton's Sweeney Todd may be my favorite movie ever. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 14:54,4April,2010

I couldn't agree more with your criticisms. With a few exceptions (Big Fish and Beetlejuice) I really despise Burton as a director, writer, and a cultural force. He is praised as visionary when he should be mocked for being an incredibly closed-minded niche director who is relatively uninventive. Actually, I had an idea for the article in which we would mock him by only focusing on his terrible movies that were flops, like "Mars Attacks" or "Ed Wood" or "Planet of the Apes." He's also making a movie titled "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter." I plan on having a lot of fun with that. Trumping up Danny Elfman (A TERRIBLE movie composer. Here's my views on the matter [bad quality, but you get the point] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMsUwfQdxF8) is a must as well. Maybe subtle gay jokes between the two...? just a thought. As obvious a choice this was for this month's collab, this is going to be a tough one. -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 11:57 EST 4 April, 2010

I loved Ed Wood, especially Martin Landau as Bela Legosi (Oscar for Best Supporting Actor). We rented it and Wood's Plan 9 from Outer Space and watched them back to back. Fun stuff. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  05:15, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

On Johhny Depp being the narrator

I'm actually very much against this idea. Johhny is known for his visual acting style and how he uses the tone of his voice, I really think an attempt to nail him down in text-only is a disaster waiting to happen. I really don't think we can do it. See my ideas above for how I think mocking him would best work.

In order to go the non-encyclopedic route this month, we could have the article be Tim Burton giving an interview. just a though. -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 12:04 EST 4 April, 2010

Here's my experiment with JD as a narrator. User:Matfen/Sandbox. I half-agree with you about the whole visual/audio thing with JD. Doing it with Caricatures of his roles with Tim Burton would be stupid and wouldn't work. However, if you watch JD in interviews and the Gonzo documentary, he's actually quite a normal(ish) and reserved guy. It's this kind of Johnny Depp that would be narrating the article. If we did this, (and did it right), we'd get a lot for very little. I think the reader's would enjoy the article a lot more instead of the standard-wiki narrator, except it wouldn't be that much different.

If you're still curious about what I mean, watch the beginning of this trailer. [1] --Matfen 17:52, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

That's actually really funny! I'm about to go offline for a few hours (or days, depends), but I'll go over that. Please feel free to edit the actual collaboration if you think you have good ideas. -- Skinfan13 14:01 EST 4 April, 2010

I feel like I should contribute as I'm the one that nommed Burton in the first place

Any suggestions on where I should start? »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 20:40,8April,2010

By the way I totally call the section on Sweeney Todd. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 21:47,8April,2010

Sounds good to me, bro. My least favorite film. --Matfen 21:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Fuck you. Metaphorically that is. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 22:00,8April,2010

I didn't mean of all time lol. --Matfen 22:07, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Any suggestions on where you should start? Well I have no authority here, but my suggestion is, hmm, on the parts that aren't written yet? (Yes, I know you already called dibs on Sweeney Todd. I'm just being a jerk). King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  22:01, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yes you are. Fuck you as well. Again, metaphorically of course. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 22:06,8April,2010

moving discussion from article to here

on the artistic style section:

I'd like to go ahead and work on the rest of this section, if that's ok with you MsuCarencro? -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ

As long as you get the tone I set in the intro correct; by the way, could I add more pictures? I'm also a picture guy. M'su Carencro - Talk - Contributions - Blag

Go for it! plus, discussion goes in the talk page, I didn't mean for this to be a discussion, my bad lol. I'm also putting all of this on the talk page. -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 23:01 EST 8 April, 2010

Save some pics for me! I like-a the pics! And by the way, if I'm not a major writer on this one, I may have to slap somebody. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 03:03,9April,2010

hmmm, is that dissension in the ranks I hear? Don't worry cheddar, everyone whose contributed so far is pretty much in line for the points :) --SF13 23:06

Quote at the top of the page?

should we have one, and what should it be? my vote:

“I'm sure my friendship with the man has nothing to do with my presence in every single one of his films...”

~ Johnny Depp on Burton's choice in actors

-- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 23:07 EST 8 April, 2010

Keep in mind that a lot of the active users here (i.e. those who vote on VFH) strongly dislike opening quotes. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  20:50, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Nah, opening quotes suck, I've kept them off of all my pages so far. Another topic, there are so many USS pages now, can there be a central page which lists, links, and explains all the other pages. I only come across them when there's activity on them. The frat's growing by leaps and pounds, nice work! Aleister in Chains 20:55 9 4 mmx

I put opening quotes on two of my articles, in one, I ended up deleting them, and in the other, well, we all saw how that ended up... »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 21:10,9April,2010

What AiC said about having a central page which shows the various USS pages--I like that. I just found a discussion I'd missed entirely since I signed up about 9 days ago. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  21:39, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I think that's a pretty good quote, but it seems like the majority of the community doesn't like quotes at all. —Pelozurian (talk) 21:15, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I like quotes, you'll notice I implement them often in my stuff, albeit just one per page, but if no one wants a quote, then oh well. -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 17:32 EST 9 April, 2010

Personally, I like quotes, too--many of my highest-graded English papers had them at the beginning. Quotes inside an article seem to be accepted here, just not at the beginning. I think it's one of those things that was really cool the first 10,000 times it was used, like Oscar Wilde quotes and references to Chuck Norris kicking someone's butt. After that, it got old. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  21:36, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

I kind of like quotes too, and the one you mentioned was great. But yeah, it's kinda like what WHY said (the bastard). »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 21:50,9April,2010

WHAT?!?

"The person who nominated the monthly collab that's selected will take an informal lead on the project. This person can delegate that responsibility if they wish."

I have the lead on this bitch? FUCK YEAH!! »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 22:24,9April,2010

Understand that's my rewording of what was there in an attempt to make it clearer. I may have gotten it wrong. Perhaps it should say, "The person who nominated the monthly collab that's selected will take an informal lead on the project. This person can delegate have that responsibility if they wish to pay each member 100 kg of gold." King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  22:33, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

It appears we have a Dicktator in our midst. You should know Chedds, that when I said Sweeney Todd was my least favorite film, I meant out of Christian Bale films and that one. Please don't make me scrub the deck for grammar and spelling mistakes! --Matfen 11:35, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

FUCK THAT!! I'm running this now. Bow down, BITCHEZ!!

Also, good luck with that. I don't make spelling or grammar mistakes. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 12:06,10April,2010

Nightmare Before Festivus

I don't know about this one. I mean, it's very funny, but the rest of the movies are accurate (at least title-wise), so to have one like this seems a little out of place to me. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 12:12,10April,2010

Seeing as we're attacking Alesiter in this section, and I wish to grovel at mein fuhrer's feet, the boldened captions aren't really consistent with the rest of them either. Offhand question, I noticed the filename of the image was Brando's bones. Are they really Marlon Brando's bones? --Matfen 12:17, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they are really Brando's bones, which I have and photographed. It took awhile to get the meat off of them, though, and the hide was a little tough on the gullet too. I'd suggest we make a couple movies off-title, just for the funny, and this gives a chance to do a twist on the Christmas movie by substituting and juxtaposing (sp?) a known topic and characters. OK, I'll unbold the caption, although I really like the idea of bolded captions, pic worth 1000 words and all that. Any objection to bolding all of them? And if I'm going to oversee the project I'd like you two and Msu to have a big hand in this. Matfen, it seems you set a tone and style, and maybe this can be the final tone once April 23rd or so rows around. Al, a few minutes later

Who made you king? I believe I already hold that role. Bitch. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 12:29,10April,2010

I've actually grown somewhat endeared to the Festivus title now. Perhaps it could be a pun on the overt political correctness we have these days, by not excluding other december religious festivals, like Channukah and Kwanza. As for the other films, it'd be an ok idea to change them, but I think they're dumb enough in reality. I am against the boldening of the captions though. It's fine with your own articles, but Bold is synonymous with all-caps to me. I really don't think they should be done unless it's a title, or the text is supposed to be shouting or something. That's just me, though. The other users can weigh in, if Chedds doesn't imprison them first. --Matfen 12:40, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Caption bold, out. Skinfan made me King, and heavy is the head that wears the crown. But Cheddar is the loving Prince whom I will protect my back from, and give free reign too in order to protect my back. Matfen started the plagerizing theme, so I think that should be kept throughout, and the Elfman variations could be pretty funny if done right. I'd like the page to be of VFH quality right from the pee review on, so let's all work to fuck it up before then and then we can fix it with Gorilla glue and scotch tape. Al, a few minutes later

According to the rules, nominator=king. You report to me now. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 13:15,10April,2010

Yes, sir. (the King says as he plays along with the dangerous Prince) Tell me what it is you desire (he says as his troops mass at the door, ready to burst in if the right keyphrase is uttered). I say let's keep the page on track and both of us can round out any edges and fix things, and add more funny which is what the rabble is looking for (he concludes as the beautiful Queen beckons him into her nightchamber). Al sans chains 15:36 10 4 mmx

Look! I finally found this page

I noticed the Festivus joke when looking at the changes in the history and it made me laugh, so I'm all for keeping it per Aleister's suggestion.

Also, on the question of Any objection to bolding all of them? I do. I think it looks tacky if ALL of the text in the captions are bolded; there is no emphasis when the text is slightly-shouting throughout. When I copy/voice/tone-edited Nintendo-redux I plain-texted & reemphasized the captions for the entire piece. (I really hope you don't think I fucked it up any... where is the discussion page for that?) Captions should have limited italicizes, bolding and color in my opinion.

So in conclusion, Aleister +1, Aleister -1, for a net gain of 0. *hugs & kisses*  ~ Avast Matey!!! Happytimes are here!*  (talk) (stalk) Π   ~  ~  11 Apr 2010 ~ 02:27 (UTC)

I'll say essentially the same time on this article I did when I Pee Reviewed the previous article; for an article to hold together, it should sound like it was written by one person. The style should be consistent unless there's a way to make the inconsistent consistent; for example, it worked for HowTo:Write Good Poetry because that had only three sections each told by a different poet, but there's way more than three movies here. The style of this section, whether brilliant or not, doesn't seem to fit the rest of the article. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  04:32, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Last words before my self impossed break

Hey guys, I really like what we're churning out here, however, I think we're getting a little carried away with the films. There's no reason to do a blurb for every film he's ever done. We need to cut back on the films we choose to portray and focus more on the artistic section and life section. Along these lines we should probably choose five or six films out of what we have to be in the final article. My recommendation is for 4 or 5 films featuring elfman (as thats one of my favorite gags in the article) and one without for the variation and comedic effect. Have fun finishing up the article! -- Sir SF13 (Talk) GUN WotM RotM FBotM VFH SK Maj. ΥΣΣ 12:45 EST 12 April, 2010

I was kind of thinking the same thing, except backwards, in that I was wondering what the point of the Directing and Artistic style section would be, if we described every film he did anyway. But yeah, you're right, we should probably focus on a few less, as we're essentially just going to be writing the same thing over and over soon, so instead we could save some of the criticisms we would use for the Artistic and Directing section.

It's kind of hard looking at which films to get rid of, though, as I want to keep the entire 2000 section. We could get rid of Pee-Wee's big adventure and Beetlejuice, but it'd make the Batman intro a bit abrupt. We could merge what Ideas I was saving for Batman Returns with Batman 1. James and the Giant Peach and Mars Attacks can easily go. Ed Wood and Sleepy Hollow aren't finished yet, so I don't know how they'll turn out, and they're relatively important works of Burton's. Edward Scissorhands could possibly go. Finally, does this reduction mean we'll do away with the decades titles and just have a "Selective Filmography" title or something similar? The other Frat Bros will seriously need to weigh in on this. --Matfen 18:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, we can then do away with the years/decades. Matfen, why don't you lead us down the primrose on this. Keep your, mine, and Cheddar's faves (I like Festivus, of course), do some merge magic, then we can expand the films a little, and let's see what we've got. Good idea Skin. Al sans chains 19:07 12 4 mmx

I don't know about getting rid of the films, as a big part of Burton is displayed through the oddness and occasional repetitive nature of the films. They could be slimmed down, but to chop out many would feel uneven to me. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 19:18,12April,2010

I'm unsure what to do, now, as the King and the Prince seem to be at odds. For now, I'll merge the Batmans, remove James and the Giant Peach and Mars attacks. Might work on a way to reduce Pee-Wee and Betelgeuse as well.--Matfen 19:47, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

If we do go with that "Choose your favorites" thing, Sweeney Todd is definitely staying. »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 20:03,12April,2010

Maybe I can work Beetlejuice into the start of Festivus (I'd have to write Beetlejuice anew though) as both deal with dead things playing with semi-living and living things. What do you think? I've got an emotional bond to someone who has an emotional bond to Beetlejuice, main reason why. Maybe keep more films than above, via Cheddar's viewpoint of the page. Al, later that day

Sounds like a good possibility. Right now, we're at 4 films a decade, with 5 films for the 2000s seeing as it's probably his most prolific, which isn't too bad. --Matfen 20:34, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Tim Burton - Filmography or Tim Burton - Complete works??? I have a feeling that somebody would complain that it was nothing more than a list though....  ~ Avast Matey!!! Happytimes are here!*  (talk) (stalk) Π   ~  ~  12 Apr 2010 ~ 20:34 (UTC)

Artistic and Directing Style

I'm having difficulty writing this, mostly because I feel like I'm just bluntly rewriting the themes we cover with more subtlety in the films section. Also, it's hard trying to get the attitude consistent with the rest of the article, as reading the film section, it appears that we're taking a "everyone thinks he's amazin, when he's really not.", while with the artistic and Directing style, I can only think of doing it with subtlety when I'm vigourously defending them against criticism. Would anyone object to a listy type of howTo guide: It'd probably go something like this, but with a bit more polish:

• Step 1: Find a well-established Franchise that already has a built-in fanbase, preferably one which contains many visual opportunities.
• Step 2: Hire a screenwriter to create a high-quality adaptation of this.
• Step 3: Ignore most of their contributions and suggestions, removing any realistic dialogue, non-fantastical story elements, and transforming any parts of the original that you don't understand or would not sit well within the Gothic community.
• Step 4: Pick up your dark, gothic 1940's telephone and call Johnny Depp to see if he's doing anything. He's on speed-dial, it shouldn't take too long.
• Step 5: Threaten Helena Bonham-Carter with divorce if she says she cannot star in you movie. Nobody cares if your entire family was killed in a bus crash in South Africa. We've got a movie to make, damn it!
• Step 5: Visit the Hollywood retirement home and hire anyone who's awake at the time.
• Step 6: Spend 12 months on set design and prop production.
• Step 7: Spend 2 weeks filming the actor's lines.
• Step 8: Call Danny Elfman, and reminisce about how you both met. After sufficient buttering up, ask him to write the music for your movie.
• Step 9: Release your movie to high ticket sales, high fanboyism, and high praise for your originality, and artistic vision.

I'm probably missing some stuff, and I'm only half sure about the idea myself. Depends on what you lot think. --Matfen 22:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Nice. Maybe if not listy, but in a long paragraph or three, one point after the other. Maybe you can have him contemplate wearing 3-D glasses all the time, so he never misses anyhthing coming at him. Maybe the list can be in first person, upon finding a scrap of paper which fell out of his pocket because he still can't see too well wearing his 3-E glasses all the time, and tends to drop things. Al sans chains or sig, a few minutes later

Alice In Wonderland

Who wants to get this one? It's probably necessary, as it's specifically mentioned in the intro... »» Back ² Tha Hood»» 02:32,19April,2010

Weird that the most recent colonization talks about Alice in Wonderland. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  04:23, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

True. Technically it was released in 2010, so does it get its own section, or should we just sneak it into the 2000s and hope no-one notices? --Matfen 14:41, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

Own section. Anally-retentive people like me will notice and get all pissy about it. King of the Internet Alden Loveshade??? (royal court)  21:52, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

The Nightmare before Festivus again...

I'm sorry, but I don't get what Seinfeld has to do with either Festivus or The Nightmare before Christmas. I can haz education? --Matfen 20:33, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Matfen, you'ze been locked in a cave for a decade. Festivus and Seinfeld are locked together like Bogie and Bacall, Humpy and Dumpty, Pacino and DeNiro. Here's the wikipedia page. All you need to know is laid out in front of you. I just logged back on and don't know if anyone has taken the review as yet, or if you've left another note. Back soon in any case. Aleister sans chains 20:49 23 4

As for Festivus/Christmas, Festivus is the winter holiday, along with the Solstice, for us non-religious people. It's become kind of like a Discordian holiday, a twist on the season where no religious overtones are present. So making the trip to the holiday of Festivus instead of to Christmas in Nightmare adds a twist which, to me at least, is very funny. Seinfeld itself is like an iconic tv show now, and is rerun in western countries many times a day, so the names will be familiar, and having the Halloween guy run Elaine through with his bony forearm at the Festivus dinner is a gif that someone more talented than I should someday make. Al 21:04 23 4

|Thnkx you, mai king. I can finally appreshiate teh joke now lol >D . BTW, i'm not trapped in a cave. It's actually a very large island, populated only by chavs and a few fields of broccoli. --Matfen 18:46, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Pee Review in

A good pee review by Black Flamingo has arrived, and so the next phase of editing begins. I suggest we ask a single editor, probably someone who hasn't been involved in editing, to work on the page. Puppy almost volunteered, and he would be a great editor for the page if we let him have free reign for awhile. Guildy too, but he's quite busy right now at school. But please look at the review, thoughts and comments, and Matfen and Cheddar have done very good work up to now, we just have to pull it together. Maybe as someone edit sweeps Tim we can start on Chicken. Comments and ideas? Aleister in Chains 10:02 30 4 mmx

This stuff here

User talk:Skinfan13/Upsilon Sigma Sigma/Collaboration/April2010collab Nominally Humane! some time Saturday, 03:07, May 1 2010 UTC

VFH?

»» Back ² Tha Hood»» 15:31,30June,2010